The main reason why I didn’t want high end packages for our last car was, that I am a cheap bastard. The second reason is, that I think touchscreens in cars are one of the dumbest ideas imaginable.
There are places where touch controls make a lot of sense. Cars is not one of them.
My stove also has touch controls and I’d like a stern word with whomever designed it because it’s the biggest fucking bullshit. I’ve burned myself on those controls, I’ve had the stove turn itself off and refuse to turn on again because of water splashing onto the controls, I’ve had it turn on and glitch out because I’ve cleaned it off with a slightly damp rag.
When I’m driving I absolutely don’t want to dig through non-tactile menus just so I can adjust the climate or turn on my heated seat. Plus, the lack of tactility sucks for blind people. Sure blind people won’t drive, but imagine having to ask the driver to change your AC for you? In the dark of winter with ice on the roads that’s just horribly irresponsible of whomever designed it.
When I’m driving I absolutely don’t want to dig through non-tactile menus just so I can adjust the climate or turn on my heated seat.
Look at Mr. Fancypants over here who can afford a heated seat subscription.
lmao I wish. I’d fucking never support that kind of behaviour. I don’t have a car, but my roomie has a VW Golf with subscriptionless heated seats.
I happen to have a pretty decent inside view into the whole “heated seats” bullshit too. See, I used to work for a company that did a lot of work for Stellantis. You literally can’t fathom just how much administrative bullshit work goes into the customisation of packages and spec sheets. It’s a constantly ongoing thing, thousands of man hours are wasted on it. Things change between markets, and in some markets it affect insurance levels and whatnot, so there’s just so much underlying complexity beyond “oh I want a red car with heated seats.” I’ve legit no idea how it came to be as complicated as it is, but it’s mindfuckingly idiotic. When I left I believe Stellantis was working on replacing the system with their own, but I somehow doubt that it’s an improvement.
They are saving incredible amounts of money by flat out removing options and having them unlocked through a subscription fee. Lots of work is removed just from an administrative view, nevermind the fact that the manufacturing chain gets streamlined and money is saved there too.
On top of that, you’re paying for the seat, it’s not like they’re including features out of the kindness of their hearts, you’re paying for all of the hardware, and then they’re trying to pretend like they’re doing you a favour by letting you “pay for it when you need it.” It’s 100% a scam, and the EU isn’t going to do shit about it because among the perps are some of the most valuable German companies, and they happen to hold the German government by their balls.
The benefit of unified hardware and not having subscriptions can be easily combined: just replace subscriptions with a one-off charge for any feature. Warranty void if enabled not in a dealer shop. I think that would create much less noise than offering a monthly sub. Yes, I know, not great for the quarterly results, but then - so much less hate from your customers. And yes, touch screens in a car should wait until there is a full, proper self-driving capability in place.
Sure, but you’d still be ripping people off. If your car has an option to unlock heated seats through microtransactions, you’ve already paid for heated seats.
The definition of rip off may vary. Still, that would be a saner marketing approach, in my view.
As I understand, all the businesses are trying to replicate the IT-born business model of subscription for features. It should not be a thing in the real world, and I hope these managers come to sense, the sooner the better.
The way I see it, if I have to pay extra for a feature I’ve paid for, then it’s a rip-off. Like if I booked a hotel and then got told that I need to pay extra to have a bed, I’d be pretty miffed.
Say you have options to have regular seats or heated seats, as well as leather or fabric seats, that’s essentially four options. By making all seats heated and locking the usage via software, you’ve cut the amount of options in half. That reduces complexity during assembly and ends up cutting costs. You’re still going to charge the customer at least the full price of the seat, though. It’s not like you’re charging for
seat - heatinghoping that the difference would be covered by those that actually choose to subscribe.There’s also the question of; what happens 10-15 years from now? Nintendo closed the store on the 3DS in March 2023. The console was released in February 2011. At what point will you no longer be able to use your heated seats because the manufacturer has stopped updating the API for your car, and you’re no longer able to pay for it? How will that affect resell value?
I hate this sort of practise in smartphones and software. A car is order of magnitudes more expensive than a mobile game. If they want to apply mobile game tactics to vehicles, then the cost of the car should be comparable to a mobile game as well.
The fact that a heated seat subscription idea didn’t completely end the consumer market for the manufacturers attempting it shows us that too few people are awake to impact their income. The manufacturer will do whatever they want, including recording every possible thing they are able to inside the vehicle.
I am afraid you are right. Am driving a non-connected old car, and intend to buy a new one without that crap.
I do struggle to understand why the general population is so untroubled with this constant privacy breaching creep (a bit less worried with subs as when it comes to monies, people are a bit more alert). I have a lot of smart friends who click the “agree to everything you want from me” button everywhere, and they see no issue with it.
just replace subscriptions with a one-off charge for any feature. Warranty void if enabled not in a dealer shop.
The car owner has every right to use every hardware capability physically present in the car, “enabled” or not. Manufacturers have no right to deny warranty claims based on owner modification, unless they can prove that said modification caused the failure.
Great news. I wish they would also deduct stars if the heating/cooling controls are not physical too.
I used to think virtual automation and touchscreens were the coolest thing, until I started to do work designing an industrial process and considering safety. And ever since, I am completely in favor of physical switches and devices instead of virtual. So much more secure.
Honestly, I thought I would love touch controls in my car. But I drive a LOT for work and what I’ve learned is there are very few things as frustrating as being on a bumpy road trying to press a touch screen button and hitting every other button on the screen in the process.
Yeah there’s that too. It really isn’t practical. At the very least you want some sort of tactile feedback so you have confirmation “yes I pressed the thing”
BuT tHeRe Is VoIcE cOnTrOl!!!
Yes but if I have two friends on board that are talking I won’t say
“SILENCE EVERYONE! I WILL NOW ATTEMPT TO ENTER THE NAVIGATIOM DESTINATION THREE TIMES WHICH WILL ALL FAIL!”
And zooming the map on skodas with touch screens is just THE WORST.
To be honest zooming isn’t great on my 2010 yeti with a physical zoom wheel either.
These systems are always crap in cars because compared to modern phones they feel unbelievably slow; my yeti is now 14 years old but my phone is 2 years old so it’s a pretty unfair comparison!
Well at some point I expect zooming a map to work without lag. I assumed we were talking about new cars here.
Our other car is a 9 year old Mercedes and physical zoom is super nice there.
The actual issue on the Skoda is not that it doesn’t zoom smoothly but that it stops following your car when you zoom. It instead stayes fixed.
I don’t disagree, just pointing out a general issue with car nav systems
I understand. Android auto is quite nice. I don’t like that the assistant can’t be changed to another app. There should be an open protocol which allows any device to take over the cars multimedia systems.
For more thinking about this issue for software/hardware makers a good read is “Enchanted Objects” by David Rose.
iirc. He says we’re in a ‘Glass Rectangle’ phase, where makers are stuck on screens, Like Xhibit in Pimp my ride - we put 22 screens in your car. They know how to “screen” and they use it the solution to all problems. It’s like an infatuation, where you just can’t see another way. There are entire sciences of Human Machine Interaction that explain why these designs are messed up, and the designers are aware, and have chosen otherwise.
2016 Actor Antov Yelkin who played Checkov is killed by his 2015 Jeep Grand Cherokee, pinning him to his mailbox and fence. Because it didn’t have a gearshift. It has a thing that looks like a shift but is a joystick.
The first time I tried using android auto in a rental car I hated it. The damn thing would disconnect constantly and there was no safe way to restart or reconnect it while driving, I had to pull over somewhere. The car’s screen controlled things like the radio and AC so I had to constantly take my eyes off of the road to adjust anything.
Were you using Android Auto with a USB cable or wireless? I have an aftermarket AA radio in my car that I use wired and it works almost perfectly, but I also have physical climate control so I can’t fully relate
Being honest here, I have a car with android auto and I hate having to plug it in for a variety of reasons.
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I just want to get in and drive, the music should just play and all the stuff should just get out of the way.
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I don’t want to charge my phone every time I drive my car, it’s not necessary and can be hard on the battery
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This is doubly important for an EV, I don’t want to waste EV power charging a phone that doesn’t need charging
My opinion, Phone OS makers need to get their shit together around android auto / apple carplay. Too much nonsense gets in the way of all the actually important pieces. When you get in a car with only a radio, the music just starts playing when you get in. Which means, your experience is better with old tech. That’s just ridiculous.
I personally think a better idea is to just start equipping cars with cell modems that you add to your plan or something. There is no need to offload this work to your cellphone when the car has more physical space for that kind of thing anyway. I mean tesla’s just have a borderline gaming computer in them these days.
You can get an adapter that makes wired Android Auto or Apple CarPlay wireless. I bought one off AliExpress for like $30 and it works great.
Ironically I’ve had an issue with Spotify not automatically playing when I wanted it to, unrelated to Android Auto lol
Also I think some cars do have cell modems, but it’s mostly to provide in car wifi
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Were you using Android Auto with a USB cable or wireless? I have an aftermarket AA radio in my car that I use wired and it works almost perfectly,
Are you suggesting a
Wi-FiBluetooth device inside of the same vehicle its trying to connect to viaWi-FiBluetooth would have connection problems, and not be able to connect, at that short range?I mean, yeah, it’s possible
Just trying to get more information about their experience as well, maybe it’s not actually Android Auto and it’s a weird half baked system built into the car
I’m researching aftermarket head units for my wife’s Kia, what did you go with?
You definitely don’t want wireless android auto…the interface sucks and it’s amazing to be able to unplug it and use your phone correctly then plug back in
I have wireless android auto in my GLI. It’s fine. There have been a few random instances where being connected wirelessly has been inconvenient. But my biggest gripe is the battery drain.
If their cheap-asses had actually done something other than cheapest possible implementation for the majority of input devices it might have been ok. Having driven several cars with touch input for various features the complaints I have are all the same:
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too many menus with unintuitive directories that put what should be top-level systems several layers deep. IOW, I want to turn on the AC. I shouldn’t have to climb out of the Sirius menu then down 2-3 layers to turn on the AC and choose the ventilation configuration and temperature.
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Horrible UI design. Things that need to be tapped/touched are either too small and/or too close together. You shouldn’t need to divert your attention to focus on a 1/4” square “OK” touch element when this should have a touch area minimum of a square inch so you can hit it without too much concentration. UI’s are too cluttered.
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closely related to #2 - awful sensitivity of the screen. Small buttons that are hard to accurately hit are worsened by touch screens that don’t register input. Now you’re trying to accurately hit a patch of screen that is refusing to accept the tap, so now you’re further distracted and frustrated trying to get you music stream to play or whatever.
I don’t hate touchscreens, they can be useful, but manufacturers have implemented them at the expense of actually driving the car.
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We want buttons
Good! I hate how modern cars have so few buttons.
Imagine changing gear without feeling which gear you have/changed to.
I’d like to introduce you to the manual drive option on my 2014 Kia Soul.
Is it otherwise automatic? I never use the manual option for automagic gears.
Yeah it’s normally automatic. The shifter has a +/- and I can move up or down with a little flick. The automatic transmission is otherwise annoying so sometimes I use that. Took a lot of getting used to.
Not sure how related this is but in my field, designing industrial control systems, each seperate physical button is about $100 added to the cost over a touchscreen. We call touchscreens HMIs just to be special and sound smart. I imagine the numbers are very similar for cars but I don’t have data to back that up.
BAS inputs (all physical inputs really) require muxed and addressed circuits on the board level to accomplish some connection to the software interface, whereas one touchscreen can have an arbitrary number of software interfaces it interacts with.
True but wasn’t really thinking of it that way when I said $100 dollars, since I usually have way more I/O than I need. It is the physical operators, the running wire, the mounting, the inventory etc.
Same I sell access control and my comment was really more additional context for the normies. Recently I’ve been thinking about what the barrier of entry for Bacnet native access control hardware would be, and I can’t come up with good reasons that jci or kaba hardware is priced at the level it’s at except to consider it’s proprietary software interface.
Manufacturers don’t want to supply complete interoperable devices, because then they couldn’t sell software
Tesla’s on-wheel turn signal buttons are criminally bad.
I mean, no fucking shit.
Well duh. Even when they were introduced, touchscreens in cars got a lot of pushback. I’d much rather flip a switch or turn a knob for things I do daily, rather than futz three levels deep in a car maker’s software. They put things in there that really should be simple pushbuttons.
the 2010s was a mistake
