Electric school buses are a breath of fresh air for children | Nearly $1B in federal funding could help clean up the unequal health impacts of diesel pollution.::Nearly $1B in federal funding will help decarbonize transportation and clean up some of the unequal health impacts of diesel pollution
As a child in the 80’s I remember my gag reflex kicking in every time I walked to my bus. The air was so bad that my body physically refused to let me take in a breath.
FWIW diesel-powered vehicles are much cleaner now than they were in the '80s. Diesel fuel is now sulfur-free, and since 2004 progressively stiffer EPA regulations have reduced the NOx and particulate matter output of diesel engines by orders of magnitude. Unfortunately, though, “cleaner” in this case does not include a reduction in greenhouse gases - in fact, school bus engines of today spit out more greenhouse gases per mile than did buses of the 1980s. This is because the EPA diesel regulations limit permitted emissions based on horsepower-miles, so an engine with twice the horsepower (like today’s bus engines compared with older engines) is permitted to emit twice as much junk. And since modern bus engines have much more horsepower, they emit much more greenhouse gases.
For those of you who haven’t been in a school bus in years, do you remember how loud they are? Reducing diesel pollution is a win, but being in a less-noisy environment for however long each day is also a win.
As a cyclist and occasional user of public transit, I really like the idea of most buses eventually being at least plug-in hybrid-electric if not entirely battery electric. I’m curious about the mass difference between a diesel, diesel-electric, and battery-electric bus (after all, the heavier the vehicle, the harder it is on the road). I expect some of the fuel-and-maintenance-cost-savings from the bus fleet will have to go to road maintenance in the end, but I’d rather spend money that way (locally) than spend it on pumping fresh hot carbon out of foreign wellheads
Diesel-Electric Hybrid should also be considered as an option depending on the use case of the service area. As a hybrid, the bus wouldn’t need to run it’s diesel engine at the school pickup point, would have the the benefit of regenerative braking, and overall have better fuel economy, emissions, and longevity of the engine.
This would be beneficial to areas that are too rural and have too long of routes for the batteries to last and areas that have a lot of cold weather might not want to risk freezing their kids because the batteries suddenly have to both drive and heat the whole bus. Cities could be all electric because the routes are much shorter and overall be operating at lower speeds. Also, much more stop-and-go, so the regen braking will really shine.
The money will purchase more than 2,700 vehicles to shuttle 7 million students in 37 states
Big buses…
Good catch lol. I’m trying to picture a 2600 passenger bus. That’s more than any train I’ve ever been on. It would have to be the size of an ocean liner.
I could see this fit in perfectly with normal bus routes, but field trips and athletic events could be a challenge, especially for rural schools. Nothing that could not be planned around but possibly an extra cost (e.g. charter buses) or needing to keep the kids entertained while charging on the road.
I remember the school buses in one high school I went to running on propane. It’s not as clean as electric, but it’s cleaner than diesel… and at the time, an electric school bus would have been expensive, if not outright science fiction.
A bunch converted during the 70s oil embargo. I’m surprised it didn’t stick around
Republicans are against it because they think children should be breathing diesel fumes and the ones who get ill from it didn’t try hard enough.
Republicans are against it because oil lobbyists who would lose money on it told them to be and the bribe money is nice.
“Fuck them kids.”
at this point i believe you
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I love EVs and truly believe they’re the future. But holy shit what must these monsters weigh? And, what’s the environmental impact considering our current shitty battery tech?
I still support moving this direction because it creates the necessary infrastructure that can be leveraged by newer battery tech. And likely even with the batteries, it’s better than diesel.
But the new batteries to make them lighter and less polluting can’t come soon enough.
our current shitty battery tech
I think our battery tech is the best it’s ever been, unless you’re comparing it to sci-fi
EDIT: Why on earth are people downvoting improving battery technology? LMFAO, sometimes this place is batshit crazy.
There’s research into many different formulations that don’t use nearly as much (or in some cases any) toxic materials, solid-state batteries, etc.
Are you taking the critique personally? If so, that’s a misunderstanding. It’s not an attack on you.
It’s simply a fact there’s a LONG way to go on battery tech, and anything we can do to increase power density while decreasing weight is critical to making them more environmentally friendly and sustainable.
The current environmental impact is none if you compare it to literally shipping oil from the middle east every day just to burn it.
You love EVs yet are parroting oil barons talking point. I’m skeptical.
I still support moving this direction because it creates the necessary infrastructure that can be leveraged by newer battery tech. And likely even with the batteries, it’s better than diesel.
I don’t know how to help you read.
You sound like a demagog who feels attacked when faced with facts or genuine issues. Advocating for improvements to the technology isn’t being anti-EV or even anti-battery. LOL. #faceplam&sigh
“Black propaganda is a form of propaganda intended to create the impression that it was created by those it is supposed to discredit”
When a fact looks like propaganda to you, then you need to recognize the red flag and seek self improvement.
Batteries are over 90% recyclable. They’re actually pretty environmentally friendly after the first round.
But theyre not recycled much–YET.
Agree and excitedly look forward to growth in that market (or even having a market for it). They will eventually become a profitable recycling opportunity. Unless one of the other battery techs (tons of them) in development just completely supplanted them. Either way the impact should diminish over time. Main questions are how fast and long will they continue to be an environmental negative.
Rechargeable nickel–cadmium (Ni-Cd), nickel metal hydride (Ni-MH), lithium-ion (Li-ion) and nickel–zinc (Ni-Zn), can also be recycled. Disposable alkaline batteries make up the vast majority of consumer battery use, but there is currently no cost-neutral recycling option.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_recycling
EDIT: You can read further down how close some of these companies are to an actual recycling center. They’re getting there!
Here’s the summary for the wikipedia article you mentioned in your comment:
Battery recycling is a recycling activity that aims to reduce the number of batteries being disposed as municipal solid waste. Batteries contain a number of heavy metals and toxic chemicals and disposing of them by the same process as regular household waste has raised concerns over soil contamination and water pollution.
How is this gonna work when electric cars won’t even run in icy weather
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Electric cars run just fine in icy weather
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Heatpumps, which work a lot better for larger buses than smaller buses.
Bus routes are generally short, fixed, and planned. They are literally the perfect place for an EV.
You can generate a lot of heat with fuel-based heaters. Many buses already use these.
Makes sense to have an aux fuel heat source for EV buses that may deal with cold climate a few weeks out of the year.
Buses will have fairly large batteries (Bird does 150kWh). The percentage of the battery needed for heat goes down as size goes up because the interior size is relatively negligible in how much added heating capacity is needed to keep the bus warm.
But yes, probably wouldn’t be too crazy to throw on a propane heater in especially cold climates.
3 kids in a full size bus near the end of its rural route in sub-zero conditions. Buses aren’t insulated. An EV failure is going to be a problem. Considering how cheap those diesel heaters are it would be a liability concern to not have them.
AAA says that EV batteries tend to lose power faster in cold weather, getting as little as 50-60% of their advertised range.
“Charging stations around the city are over capacity… Once their car is finally plugged in, it takes longer than usual to power up. “…They tell you it’s fast, but then it takes two hours to charge your car,” Marcus Campbell tells NBC Chicago.”
https://www.pcmag.com/news/dont-buy-a-tesla-chicagos-ev-drivers-struggle-with-sub-zero-temperatures
This weather is a worst case scenario and I doubt schools would be open anyway but sounds like EVs are having a tough time.
AAA says that EV batteries tend to lose power faster in cold weather, getting as little as 50-60% of their advertised range.
Right, and the EVs that lose that much range are the ones with the smallest battery packs. The heating requirement as a percentage of the battery pack goes down as the battery gets larger. It takes roughly the same amount of energy to keep a 40kWh battery warm as it does to keep a 150kWh battery warm.
The same logic doesn’t directly translate for a car as a bus.
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Look at this guy, who has never had to start a diesel engine when it’s -20°F outside.
Shit, they’re hard to start when it’s + 20°F outside. I’m a school bus driver and that was the exact temperature this morning when one third of our fleet wouldn’t start up.
I grew up and rode the bus to school in Iowa. There were multiple days in my youth that local schools were closed because the diesel busses wouldn’t turn over. The guy that maintained ours used Amsoil, so our buses worked, but cold weather doesn’t only hurt electric vehicles.
There were reports over this past week over people having difficulties charging their electric vehicles due to the cold temps (-30°F wind chill and worse). All of the schools in the state were closed as well as many businesses.
Basically, it’s a self correcting issue. If it’s too cold to charge a battery, it’s too cold to have school.
I grew up and rode the bus to school in Iowa.
I rode the bus in Alaska. The buses ran well below -50f. It turns out that it’s not that hard to keep your batteries and oilpans heated if you bother putting plug-in heaters (literally, electric blankets for the purpose) in your fleet vehicles, winterize your vehicles, and plug them in when it’s cold.
I get that it’s uncommon to be that cold-prepared in places that don’t expect to see temperatures below -20 for more than a few days in a given calendar year- at some point, it makes sense to just call it off when it’s that cold. After all, do all (or even most of) the kids have proper clothes to deal with real cold?
Really cold weather can be adapted to, it’s just that when you don’t need it that often it makes sense not to spend the resources doing it.
For sure. The ROI really isn’t there when it happens every couple of years. Like you said, they do call it off when it’s that cold. It’s not safe for kids that have to walk to the bus or school. The main thing is that electric is the same way, so it’s a moot point.
The main thing is that electric is the same way,
No, the larger point is that it’s a struggle to make diesel work at +20F if you don’t do the things to make it work, and yet these things can be made to work reliably at -50F. The obstacle isn’t the limitations of the technology, it’s whether or not the cost curve makes sense. Electric can be made to work cheaply, if it’s important to you that it work- just like it’s possible to make that diesel turn over at -50F
When I say electric is the same way, I mean that if it’s too cold to run the vehicle, it’s too cold to have school.
Ok, that’s fair. The point I wanted to make upthread was that these sorts of impossible things are regularly made to work when making it work is worthwhile. Most of the ‘but this is a limitation of the technology’ talk here (about how EVs can’t work in the cold, etc) is defeatist bullshit that ignores that really if you want it to work it can be made to work
Most schools don’t open when is icy or extremely cold out. So your point is useless.
